She likely “gained” that many subscribers so quickly because she imported them from her email list which I’m sure is huge. I agree with your take mostly here but I’ve read a few of these posts now and I don’t get why no one seems to know this? I highly doubt she started at 0 and just gained 200k+ in two months. She probably just transferred her email list over which is a thing Substack encourages you to do when you join.
This was a good piece. Until I read your essay this afternoon, I was only vaguely aware of her, and checked her stuff out a couple of days ago when she first popped up in my feed. And I kept thinking, what’s the big deal was about this whole thing? Her stuff doesn’t appeal to me, as it’s a lot of new age philosophy that really comes off as bland and not my style. But to be fair, she has a right to be here as much as anybody else does and write what she wants to. And it’s like any other consumer with a business or product: If you like it, you buy it, if you don’t, then you walk out of the store and you go somewhere else. And that’s just how it is.
I literally just don’t like her work. It is not for me. That doesn’t mean I am hoping she gets cancer and dies, and runs and crawls and hides under her bed for the rest of her life. But is this not the woman who wrote a book called “we can do hard things“?If we can’t put out basic criticisms or share opinions without it being called bullying, I think that’s really stupid.
I don't think she left Substack due to not feeling welcome or criticism/bullying. I think she left because Meta platforms have been hemorrhaging followers and she needed more exposure for her next book. She anticipated another social media platform where she could get exposure, followers and make money and it just wasn't that. It's (mostly) a place of thoughtful people and in depth discussions where 'influencer cache' doesn't hold much weight. I think she realised it didn't suit her goals and left accordingly.
I for one, do not buy the Glennon Doyle was bullied line. I think she made an impulsive decision to quit because of "feels." She's the only one who knows the real reasons for her decision. I will say that with her other newsletter platform fans can't engage, so she never needs to worry about criticism from them.
Interesting! Yeah, being famous and successful in the small world of book publishing can bring on the criticism. I guess if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen!
I’ve been a regular listener to Glennon’s podcast, “We Can Do Hard Things,” for a while. I understand that she’s as fragile as anyone, but she is also tough, willing to investigate, understand and engage with difficulty. That this incident played out as it did is something of a mystery to me.
I have had this line for about 15 years now...while working as a designer in New York, I would find really cool things that were new and unique. And I would turn to my friend, Anna, and we would both shake our heads, thinking exactly the same thing...then one of would say out loud: "Cool today. Target tomorrow." To me that is Substack now. It was cool. Now it's more Target. Popularity ruins everything. Look what happened to yoga. And still....I am here on Substack and love the writers I follow. Keeping it small.
I appreciate the ongoing discussion about Doyle’s brief coming and going on this platform. It’s made me think and weigh answers, and to articulate where this uncomfortable scratchy feeling inside of me comes from. I believe that Substack is a Big Tent. That what matters is what we authentically produce and publish not who sees it or the vanity metrics that follow. Is that nigh unto impossible. Hell yes! But I accept the challenge.
I also believe that zero sum thinking does the most damage to those who look at the world through this lens. We allow ourselves to be diminished when we look to blame others for our insecurities. Frankly, “other” is a dangerous word. One that builds irreparable barriers.
I also believe we are responsible for naming and claiming our position on such topics. But for the love of god everyone, your truth isn’t necessarily a universal truth. We don’t all fit in the same box. Some of our boxes are huge and luxe with resources. For some of us our box is modest, a worn shoebox filled with things that we find meaningful. You’re like not going to cherish the same wishing rock or seashell that I choose to keep in my box. That doesn’t make my treasure less valuable (to me).
Kindness and grace may be the biggest, hardest and most challenging approach ever. Especially if we doubt it in ourselves.
"I also believe we are responsible for naming and claiming our position on such topics. But for the love of god everyone, your truth isn’t necessarily a universal truth."
Doyle migrated her list. She did not steal anything from anyone. She came with community. The bullies missed out on her subscribers who were new to the platform. It’s envy and sexism, nothing else.
I can tell from things you wrote that we disagree politically, but in general what you wrote here was rational and principled, and I’m in full agreement with you on the basic ethics.
Well said, Michael. Glennon stunned me by leaving. Had she stayed, the furor would have died down and the ire of the resentful would have found a new celebrity target. Those of us who found our tribes by connecting with others and supporting their work as best we can, excited to attract a few paying subscribers, can’t help but envy the new arrival who rakes in the subscribers and the money just by being famous. “Deserve” is such a problematic word here, as you clearly understand. (Don’t get me started on writers “deserving” to be paid.) Glennon chose to leave Substack. The question of what she “deserved” here doesn’t matter in the end.
You make some great points, but I think there is something else... fearful people with a scarcity mindset were jumping on the anti bandwagon and being mean and unkind. Why should anyone, especially anyone who is attending daily meetings to support their ongoing recovery, be expected to remain where so many people were being loudly mean and unkind.
Also, when these established authors join, with their giant followings, they are bringing more readers to Substack. This is something the fearful meanies completely overlooked.
I expect we'll see other episodes like this in the future, I guess it's the downside. I still miss the early Instagram days, when commenting was hard to do, so we just liked or scrolled onwards, enjoying otherpeople's creative output...
Yeah. Good point. Honestly I still haven't seen any genuine bullying. Not saying it didn't happen but all I saw was some criticism and frustration. Most people I've messaged with say the same.
She likely “gained” that many subscribers so quickly because she imported them from her email list which I’m sure is huge. I agree with your take mostly here but I’ve read a few of these posts now and I don’t get why no one seems to know this? I highly doubt she started at 0 and just gained 200k+ in two months. She probably just transferred her email list over which is a thing Substack encourages you to do when you join.
This was a good piece. Until I read your essay this afternoon, I was only vaguely aware of her, and checked her stuff out a couple of days ago when she first popped up in my feed. And I kept thinking, what’s the big deal was about this whole thing? Her stuff doesn’t appeal to me, as it’s a lot of new age philosophy that really comes off as bland and not my style. But to be fair, she has a right to be here as much as anybody else does and write what she wants to. And it’s like any other consumer with a business or product: If you like it, you buy it, if you don’t, then you walk out of the store and you go somewhere else. And that’s just how it is.
Her "work" is boring and bland and self-satisfied and available everywhere else. Not at all interested in anything she has to say, especially here.
I literally just don’t like her work. It is not for me. That doesn’t mean I am hoping she gets cancer and dies, and runs and crawls and hides under her bed for the rest of her life. But is this not the woman who wrote a book called “we can do hard things“?If we can’t put out basic criticisms or share opinions without it being called bullying, I think that’s really stupid.
Very well said. Good points. If her whole point was to take risks and do the hard work...is she not failing on that end in this case?
I don't think she left Substack due to not feeling welcome or criticism/bullying. I think she left because Meta platforms have been hemorrhaging followers and she needed more exposure for her next book. She anticipated another social media platform where she could get exposure, followers and make money and it just wasn't that. It's (mostly) a place of thoughtful people and in depth discussions where 'influencer cache' doesn't hold much weight. I think she realised it didn't suit her goals and left accordingly.
Fair. I buy that.
Michael:
One of the best essays I've read on this topic. Here's my take on it all, which I hope you (mostly) concur with.
https://johnsonp.substack.com/publish/posts/detail/161731745?referrer=%2Fpublish%2Fhome
Touche.
I for one, do not buy the Glennon Doyle was bullied line. I think she made an impulsive decision to quit because of "feels." She's the only one who knows the real reasons for her decision. I will say that with her other newsletter platform fans can't engage, so she never needs to worry about criticism from them.
Interesting! Yeah, being famous and successful in the small world of book publishing can bring on the criticism. I guess if you can't handle the heat get out of the kitchen!
I’ve been a regular listener to Glennon’s podcast, “We Can Do Hard Things,” for a while. I understand that she’s as fragile as anyone, but she is also tough, willing to investigate, understand and engage with difficulty. That this incident played out as it did is something of a mystery to me.
Did she say she was bullied? Or felt bullied?
I have had this line for about 15 years now...while working as a designer in New York, I would find really cool things that were new and unique. And I would turn to my friend, Anna, and we would both shake our heads, thinking exactly the same thing...then one of would say out loud: "Cool today. Target tomorrow." To me that is Substack now. It was cool. Now it's more Target. Popularity ruins everything. Look what happened to yoga. And still....I am here on Substack and love the writers I follow. Keeping it small.
Yeah, I hear you. I still LOVE Substack...but we've definitely breezed past The Glory Years, circa 2018-2023.
Must have been fun to have been there early!
I appreciate the ongoing discussion about Doyle’s brief coming and going on this platform. It’s made me think and weigh answers, and to articulate where this uncomfortable scratchy feeling inside of me comes from. I believe that Substack is a Big Tent. That what matters is what we authentically produce and publish not who sees it or the vanity metrics that follow. Is that nigh unto impossible. Hell yes! But I accept the challenge.
I also believe that zero sum thinking does the most damage to those who look at the world through this lens. We allow ourselves to be diminished when we look to blame others for our insecurities. Frankly, “other” is a dangerous word. One that builds irreparable barriers.
I also believe we are responsible for naming and claiming our position on such topics. But for the love of god everyone, your truth isn’t necessarily a universal truth. We don’t all fit in the same box. Some of our boxes are huge and luxe with resources. For some of us our box is modest, a worn shoebox filled with things that we find meaningful. You’re like not going to cherish the same wishing rock or seashell that I choose to keep in my box. That doesn’t make my treasure less valuable (to me).
Kindness and grace may be the biggest, hardest and most challenging approach ever. Especially if we doubt it in ourselves.
"I also believe we are responsible for naming and claiming our position on such topics. But for the love of god everyone, your truth isn’t necessarily a universal truth."
Beautifully said!!!
Doyle migrated her list. She did not steal anything from anyone. She came with community. The bullies missed out on her subscribers who were new to the platform. It’s envy and sexism, nothing else.
Sexism? Yeh, no…
What do you think 'hey, Glennon, you should have arrived HUMBLY' is? Women don't owe you a fucking humbly.
Sounds a little binary/extreme and lacking realistic nuance but to each their own!
I can tell from things you wrote that we disagree politically, but in general what you wrote here was rational and principled, and I’m in full agreement with you on the basic ethics.
Right on! Love when that happens. Thanks for reading.
Well said, Michael. Glennon stunned me by leaving. Had she stayed, the furor would have died down and the ire of the resentful would have found a new celebrity target. Those of us who found our tribes by connecting with others and supporting their work as best we can, excited to attract a few paying subscribers, can’t help but envy the new arrival who rakes in the subscribers and the money just by being famous. “Deserve” is such a problematic word here, as you clearly understand. (Don’t get me started on writers “deserving” to be paid.) Glennon chose to leave Substack. The question of what she “deserved” here doesn’t matter in the end.
Exactly. Well said.
You make some great points, but I think there is something else... fearful people with a scarcity mindset were jumping on the anti bandwagon and being mean and unkind. Why should anyone, especially anyone who is attending daily meetings to support their ongoing recovery, be expected to remain where so many people were being loudly mean and unkind.
Also, when these established authors join, with their giant followings, they are bringing more readers to Substack. This is something the fearful meanies completely overlooked.
I expect we'll see other episodes like this in the future, I guess it's the downside. I still miss the early Instagram days, when commenting was hard to do, so we just liked or scrolled onwards, enjoying otherpeople's creative output...
Yeah. Good point. Honestly I still haven't seen any genuine bullying. Not saying it didn't happen but all I saw was some criticism and frustration. Most people I've messaged with say the same.
Maybe not bullying, but definitely unkind!
I agree with your assessment- I wrote about it as well. Check it out- I am done with the subject now-
https://substack.com/@debbiedaleblackwell
Great post! You articulated a lot of things that were floating in my head around this whole fake Glennon Doyle controversy.