"Am I overreacting, over exaggerating, overthinking, being too hostile and sensitive?"
Honestly, I think so.
I was impressed by the thoughtfulness and consideration of the responses you received.
It's a business. What matters primarily to an agent is what books will make money. Agent #2 explained very clearly why that book probably wouldn't garner a lot of interest for that year/quarter. It might hurt to hear, but at least she was honest with you.
I suspect the reason your book got picked up recently as opposed to 2016/2017 had nothing to do with "ideological capture." Market tastes changed and the industry responded to that.
The feedback looks impressively thoughtful to me., which speaks favorably of the novel.
Culture issues absolutely may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back (resulted in rejection). But at the same time, I think there are deeper economic causes than the culture issue du jour. The education system produces more skilled professionals (writers, computer scientists, et cetera) than there is currently funding to support professionally. Production exceeds demand—modern writers aren’t only competing with their proliferating contemporaries but also with the all of the classics. Whatever method editors (and professors) decide on for choosing what gets to see the light of day will be somewhat arbitrary. Therefore it will feel unjust (certainly it will not justly reflect intrinsic literary quality). Young professionals become alienated because they don’t get payed to perform the role that they trained for and identify with. Then they use their abilities to construct “cultural” explanations for their feeling of dislocation that provide a tidy story of injustice that could potentially be reversed without fundamental changes to the economic order. “Woke” complaints about justice in publishing can certainly fill this role. But even if the selection criteria are arbitrary, critiquing them does not solve the fundamental problem of supply and demand. Does this sound plausible?
Here to comment not so much on the reasons for the rejections but on the immense amount of time it took to get there. This way of getting into print is far too slow.
Michael. I read the sample and bought a kindle copy. Hope it's good. If so I'll write a review. I still haven't read this whole article (about the rejections). I will later. I'm still taking in my own. Many are respectful and even laudatory, but so far, they all end with, "We're not the best publisher for your work, bla bla bla." Translation, "this is good and we should publish it, but we're too cowardly and we don't want mobs of woke folk trashing out brand and shorting out our sales." Anyway, despite all that, soldier on, and I will as well.
I have a different view on the ‘white male’ block…it originates in the fact that rosters already have tons of successful white male authors but NOT an expanding readership for them. I bet the delta is shrinking…they have no need for this author segment which is massively oversupplied due to the explosion in college education of white males. I wish more people would study how self-publishing works, learn marketing and how to sell books like drugs…this ancient system of supplicating publishing gatekeepers is a waste of time in an oversupplied market of authors…
Wrong. White male 'readers' are out there but they have, many of them, given up trying to find books published by NYC Big Publishing, that they can relate to. Why? Because such books are not getting past the gamut of femmi-boi and gurl readers and editors at the various 'houses.' And your comment on an 'explosion' of college educated males is wrong as well. Colleges are now almost all predominantly female. There is a bias against males that is now embedded in the culture and the institutions. As far as 'self-publishing' is concerned, been there and done that, as well as having four books published commercially. 'Self-publishing,' much of which is now done on Amazon KDP, allows access by straight white males... to a 'ghetto' of published books. Self-published books are not deemed literate enough to be reviewed by 'woke' literati and they are not accepted for consideration by any of the big book prizes.
So, yes, we can publish (self), but more often than not, our books fall to the bottom of the great Amazon sea, never to be read and never to find acceptance.
Just so you know, I've been writing for over 50 years and despite a plethora of acquisition editors and literary agents hanging out their shingle 'White Males Need Not Apply,' I'm still writing and will be until they have to pry the No. 2 pencil from my gnarled, arthritic hands.
self publishing hasn’t worked well because the authors in question don’t hire pros to produce the book and have no clue how to market the book or themselves…there are thousands of financially successful Amazon KDP authors like me who know what we’re doing…it’s a far better commercial model for new authors, white male or not…but you have to be willing to be a publisher…
I wrote a memoir about being low-class stripper from the Deep South, found representation, got close to getting a book deal twice, but was always ultimately told that the book was “too much” to sell: too depraved, too redneck, too far away from most “normal people’s” experience. So I hired a designer (who ended up turning into a lifelong creative partner on a number of pursuits) and together we put out the book independently. BEST DECISION EVER. Every day I am grateful that I did not get a book deal. Here’s why: on the power of my own brand, I had already created a large fan base. That means I sold thousands of copies and continue to sell copies of my book, and I actually get all that money. I’ve made a significant sum on that work: who does that? Secondly, I always suspected this shit would make a great Netflix series… I am getting interest now in that direction, and guess what? I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT WITH THIS BOOK BC ALLLLLL THE RIGHTS ARE MINE. I’m so grateful for that now. You will be too.
Publishing is bananas and agent #2 was writing in code for sure, but I actually think agent #1’s rejection was super promising. To me that letter said you were REALLY close. I know that after writing a book for 8 years, hearing “not this book, but another” is crushing -- but for me and several friends that’s exactly how it worked. First book, either no agent or no sale. Second or third book, success. So I think you said you’ve given up on trad publishing, but if you ever change your mind, I bet the next book sells. I see the sings of “almost there” all over that feedback.
I am not white and I am not a man. But I am Indian-American, which codes as not the right kind of minority. My biography ("Radical Spirits") of the first Indian woman doctor who was educated in the 1880s in Philadelphia was rejected by each and every agent to whom I submitted.
The traditional publishing industry is a disgrace.
I published independently, and almost four years later, with no ongoing marketing on my part, the book continues to sell a few copies each month!
After being in a writers group for over a solid ten years now, this is the most useless feedback. I always ask two questions about criticism:
1) Is this a subjective feeling the person has?
2) Do you just not like it?
While both of those can be valid if it is two of those answers and nothing else it is not valid or helpful criticism. Criticism should always be "This *specific* thing is having this *specific* effect on at least me, and probably will on other people."
“Writing a book is an adventure. To begin with it is a toy and an amusement. Then it becomes a mistress, then it becomes a master, then it becomes a tyrant. The last phase is that just as you are about to be reconciled to your servitude, you kill the monster and fling him to the public.”
― Winston Churchill
Here's a link to video I did which is my closest experience to writing. book. I agree with Mr. Churchill.
Interesting and somewhat disheartening to see a part of this process. I think it's often hard to tell why something is chosen or rejected, might be completely arbitrary reasons most of the time unrelated to the quality of the work. Think it's still worth a try, all it takes is getting in touch with the right person. Thanks for sharing.
Really just here to read and learn, Michael (thank you). I'm so far a flop on my query-submission journey and super appreciate seeing real-live feedback from agents. With #1, how frustrating to feel so close...only to be ghosted after multiple rounds of requested revisions. Ugh.
Damn... that second agent response is excruciating. 💔
And it kinda threw me how she said the time period didn’t really matter. I wonder if she’d say the same thing now. The difference 2017 and today seems so massive I’d think not but I’m just guessing.
Maybe enough time has passed to make you a rarity now tho. I mean how many straight white male innocent punk rock rich kids are left these days? Regardless, we all deserve to tell our stories and I hope you get it published one day.
From the little I know of the traditional publishing industry and what I've gleaned from people I've talked to in that industry, they're constantly looking for a sure thing. And they have a pretty good idea of what's selling at the moment (not one moment in the future, strictly this quarter if you know what I mean) so that's what they gravitate too. Us older white guys might not be what's in. I'd suggest, as others have here, the self-publishing route. The gatekeepers will always be there if you want to go back and try some more.
"Am I overreacting, over exaggerating, overthinking, being too hostile and sensitive?"
Honestly, I think so.
I was impressed by the thoughtfulness and consideration of the responses you received.
It's a business. What matters primarily to an agent is what books will make money. Agent #2 explained very clearly why that book probably wouldn't garner a lot of interest for that year/quarter. It might hurt to hear, but at least she was honest with you.
I suspect the reason your book got picked up recently as opposed to 2016/2017 had nothing to do with "ideological capture." Market tastes changed and the industry responded to that.
The feedback looks impressively thoughtful to me., which speaks favorably of the novel.
Culture issues absolutely may have been the straw that broke the camel’s back (resulted in rejection). But at the same time, I think there are deeper economic causes than the culture issue du jour. The education system produces more skilled professionals (writers, computer scientists, et cetera) than there is currently funding to support professionally. Production exceeds demand—modern writers aren’t only competing with their proliferating contemporaries but also with the all of the classics. Whatever method editors (and professors) decide on for choosing what gets to see the light of day will be somewhat arbitrary. Therefore it will feel unjust (certainly it will not justly reflect intrinsic literary quality). Young professionals become alienated because they don’t get payed to perform the role that they trained for and identify with. Then they use their abilities to construct “cultural” explanations for their feeling of dislocation that provide a tidy story of injustice that could potentially be reversed without fundamental changes to the economic order. “Woke” complaints about justice in publishing can certainly fill this role. But even if the selection criteria are arbitrary, critiquing them does not solve the fundamental problem of supply and demand. Does this sound plausible?
Here to comment not so much on the reasons for the rejections but on the immense amount of time it took to get there. This way of getting into print is far too slow.
Michael. I read the sample and bought a kindle copy. Hope it's good. If so I'll write a review. I still haven't read this whole article (about the rejections). I will later. I'm still taking in my own. Many are respectful and even laudatory, but so far, they all end with, "We're not the best publisher for your work, bla bla bla." Translation, "this is good and we should publish it, but we're too cowardly and we don't want mobs of woke folk trashing out brand and shorting out our sales." Anyway, despite all that, soldier on, and I will as well.
Best!
I have a different view on the ‘white male’ block…it originates in the fact that rosters already have tons of successful white male authors but NOT an expanding readership for them. I bet the delta is shrinking…they have no need for this author segment which is massively oversupplied due to the explosion in college education of white males. I wish more people would study how self-publishing works, learn marketing and how to sell books like drugs…this ancient system of supplicating publishing gatekeepers is a waste of time in an oversupplied market of authors…
Wrong. White male 'readers' are out there but they have, many of them, given up trying to find books published by NYC Big Publishing, that they can relate to. Why? Because such books are not getting past the gamut of femmi-boi and gurl readers and editors at the various 'houses.' And your comment on an 'explosion' of college educated males is wrong as well. Colleges are now almost all predominantly female. There is a bias against males that is now embedded in the culture and the institutions. As far as 'self-publishing' is concerned, been there and done that, as well as having four books published commercially. 'Self-publishing,' much of which is now done on Amazon KDP, allows access by straight white males... to a 'ghetto' of published books. Self-published books are not deemed literate enough to be reviewed by 'woke' literati and they are not accepted for consideration by any of the big book prizes.
So, yes, we can publish (self), but more often than not, our books fall to the bottom of the great Amazon sea, never to be read and never to find acceptance.
Just so you know, I've been writing for over 50 years and despite a plethora of acquisition editors and literary agents hanging out their shingle 'White Males Need Not Apply,' I'm still writing and will be until they have to pry the No. 2 pencil from my gnarled, arthritic hands.
self publishing hasn’t worked well because the authors in question don’t hire pros to produce the book and have no clue how to market the book or themselves…there are thousands of financially successful Amazon KDP authors like me who know what we’re doing…it’s a far better commercial model for new authors, white male or not…but you have to be willing to be a publisher…
I wrote a memoir about being low-class stripper from the Deep South, found representation, got close to getting a book deal twice, but was always ultimately told that the book was “too much” to sell: too depraved, too redneck, too far away from most “normal people’s” experience. So I hired a designer (who ended up turning into a lifelong creative partner on a number of pursuits) and together we put out the book independently. BEST DECISION EVER. Every day I am grateful that I did not get a book deal. Here’s why: on the power of my own brand, I had already created a large fan base. That means I sold thousands of copies and continue to sell copies of my book, and I actually get all that money. I’ve made a significant sum on that work: who does that? Secondly, I always suspected this shit would make a great Netflix series… I am getting interest now in that direction, and guess what? I CAN DO WHATEVER I WANT WITH THIS BOOK BC ALLLLLL THE RIGHTS ARE MINE. I’m so grateful for that now. You will be too.
Publishing is bananas and agent #2 was writing in code for sure, but I actually think agent #1’s rejection was super promising. To me that letter said you were REALLY close. I know that after writing a book for 8 years, hearing “not this book, but another” is crushing -- but for me and several friends that’s exactly how it worked. First book, either no agent or no sale. Second or third book, success. So I think you said you’ve given up on trad publishing, but if you ever change your mind, I bet the next book sells. I see the sings of “almost there” all over that feedback.
*signs* lol
I am not white and I am not a man. But I am Indian-American, which codes as not the right kind of minority. My biography ("Radical Spirits") of the first Indian woman doctor who was educated in the 1880s in Philadelphia was rejected by each and every agent to whom I submitted.
The traditional publishing industry is a disgrace.
I published independently, and almost four years later, with no ongoing marketing on my part, the book continues to sell a few copies each month!
Just reading this now. Publishing is 100% broken, and YA is somehow even worse. 😵💫🫨🫣
After being in a writers group for over a solid ten years now, this is the most useless feedback. I always ask two questions about criticism:
1) Is this a subjective feeling the person has?
2) Do you just not like it?
While both of those can be valid if it is two of those answers and nothing else it is not valid or helpful criticism. Criticism should always be "This *specific* thing is having this *specific* effect on at least me, and probably will on other people."
Here's a quote that always sticks in my mind:
“Writing a book is an adventure. To begin with it is a toy and an amusement. Then it becomes a mistress, then it becomes a master, then it becomes a tyrant. The last phase is that just as you are about to be reconciled to your servitude, you kill the monster and fling him to the public.”
― Winston Churchill
Here's a link to video I did which is my closest experience to writing. book. I agree with Mr. Churchill.
https://youtu.be/yALVY5IG2DA?si=QO21WKd7s_TqreBw
Interesting and somewhat disheartening to see a part of this process. I think it's often hard to tell why something is chosen or rejected, might be completely arbitrary reasons most of the time unrelated to the quality of the work. Think it's still worth a try, all it takes is getting in touch with the right person. Thanks for sharing.
"no, listen, there is plenty of female-written literature/music that will give you insight into women," -said no teenage boy ever.
Really just here to read and learn, Michael (thank you). I'm so far a flop on my query-submission journey and super appreciate seeing real-live feedback from agents. With #1, how frustrating to feel so close...only to be ghosted after multiple rounds of requested revisions. Ugh.
Damn... that second agent response is excruciating. 💔
And it kinda threw me how she said the time period didn’t really matter. I wonder if she’d say the same thing now. The difference 2017 and today seems so massive I’d think not but I’m just guessing.
Maybe enough time has passed to make you a rarity now tho. I mean how many straight white male innocent punk rock rich kids are left these days? Regardless, we all deserve to tell our stories and I hope you get it published one day.
From the little I know of the traditional publishing industry and what I've gleaned from people I've talked to in that industry, they're constantly looking for a sure thing. And they have a pretty good idea of what's selling at the moment (not one moment in the future, strictly this quarter if you know what I mean) so that's what they gravitate too. Us older white guys might not be what's in. I'd suggest, as others have here, the self-publishing route. The gatekeepers will always be there if you want to go back and try some more.
Very true. Hey I’m only 40!!! 😎
"Middle aged white guys", maybe? :)
🤣